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John C. Morley: (00:09)
Hi everyone. I'm John C. Morley. The host of the JMOR tech talk show and inspirations for your life.
Well, Hi, everyone. And welcome once again to another amazing episode of the JMOR Tech Talk show. How are you doing tonight, Marcus?
Marcus: (01:11)
Hey, I'm doing fine. John, it is another wonderful Friday night.
John C. Morley: (01:16)
Yeah, we have another great show here tonight. You remember we had Dr. Michael Nuccitelli with us last week, and he had so much amazing stuff. He always has great things to share with us about what we all learn. He's coming back tonight to talk to us again, some other things that we didn't get a chance to finish up with him, and, you know, I want to share something with you. There's something called NSAM. I'm not sure if any of our viewers know NSAM, but it's for national stalking awareness month. It's actually in January, and you probably say, well, John, why are you talking about stalking now? Well, because there are a lot of groups now that are doing different events and things like that for stalking, and that went just, so you guys know if any of you are following it just recently, that was writing right around the April 19th to the 23rd.
John C. Morley: (02:18)
So, you know that was last week, but I did want to allude to it because it's really important. And you might say to me, Hey, John, what the heck is stalking? Is that a new video game, Marcus, that I can buy on Amazon? Or maybe I can get on my iPhone. No, it's not. So stalking, first of all, is not romantic. It's not attractive. It's eerie. And It's something that often gets overlooked because people say, gee, you know, they're just that way. That's how they are. Well, it's one thing to be a certain way, but it's another to be someone that's a stalker. And so, what are behavioral signs of stalking? I guess that is what I want to talk about right now. Right? So this is important.
John C. Morley: (03:09)
So that's someone, by the way, that always will be looking over your shoulder. I'm sure you've seen these people before. They're confused. You might be confused about how someone always knows we are, and they happen to show up, like in the weirdest places, at work, close to a site, at home, at a ball game, at a social event, and you'd swear, they're following you. And they magically coincidentally show up. That's just terrible. And the thing about it is that you know, maybe you're nervous about checking your phone or email why, because you're afraid it might be him, or it might be her, and why are they bothering me? So, I want to be clear and let you know that stalking is not somebody who contacts you once and annoys you. That's not stalking. It's a repetitive behavior that you don't want.
John C. Morley: (04:10)
We'll talk more about it. But the other thing that indicates the person's a stalker is you're scared of what that person might do, and you're a little fearful of your life. So it's something to take very, very seriously. And a lot of people don't take it seriously. Well, my next guest, who was a guest last week as well, and it is a fantastic privilege, a pleasure, and an honor to have Dr. Michael Nuccitelli, who was an expert in cyberbullying, cyberstalking, cyber-criminal minds, and understanding ODDOR, which is what people do online, basically filters into their offline life. Even though they're separate, they are not separate. And so he is a person that has a wealth of information has behavioral healthcare professionals. He helps people in groups. He helps people individually, but at the end of the day, he understands what stalking is and how to educate people and share what might just be beyond somebody's mind, especially that of a criminal that has cyber, like tendencies to be a stalker. Ladies and gentlemen, it is my privilege and honor to welcome you, once again, to the JMOR Tech Talk show tonight, Dr. Michael Nuccitelli. Well, welcome once again, Dr. Nuccitelli, it is always a pleasure to have you on the JMOR Tech Talk show, and we got some other great things. So thank you once again for making time from your schedule to be with us on another Friday night. We greatly appreciate it.
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (06:02)
Oh, and thank you. Thank you for allowing me to talk about some of my work.
John C. Morley: (06:07)
So, you know, for those of you that didn't watch the previous show, well, you should go back to www.jmor.com under social shows and watch the show because it kind of builds up to what we're gonna talk about today, cuz we're gonna get in some things we talked about last time. So Dr. Nuccitelli has many years of experience in cyberbullying, cyberstalking, and cyber-criminal minds. And what you guys didn't know is that something as innocent as calling someone late at night, I'm talking about after 11, or even calling somebody repetitively with a block number could be grounds for some serious charges against you. Dr. Nuccitelli Welcome.
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (06:57)
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
John C. Morley: (06:59)
I'm sure you've heard that before where, you know, people do that. They're like, well, I'm just blocking the number, and you gotta be careful because the reason you're blocking a number, I block my number of time, but I know if I'm calling certain people, especially if I call them late, I unblock my number. I want them to know who's calling or if I leave a message; hey, this is my phone number. And my number's blocked. This is who I am. That's important. And I think, you know, a mistake of something that happens, but I'm talking about when you do it repetitively, and the state defines repetitively as three or more times.
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (07:33)
Yes.
John C. Morley: (07:34)
And yes,
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (07:35)
Multiple times
John C. Morley: (07:35)
Multiple times. And they use something cause I helped somebody that needed to get defended was something called hearsay. So you can't use your cell phone, you can't use it. You have to get into a lot of data, which is not easy to prove. Sometimes they can, but it has to be egregious, something that's causing you damage in your life. Boyfriends and girlfriends do these things a lot of time to show who has more power. But I think at the end of the day, I remember the judge saying, in this one case, this is a Gerald Rivera show, or is this Dr. Phil's show? Because if that's what you want, you should be over there and not wasting my time here with the court. Right? So let's get that clear right now. And you don't realize that once you file a complaint, you can't just erase that complaint in 10 minutes. You have to go through the whole course. So what I want to share before I have you get into your special thing today about what ODDOR is, you need to realize, just like before you open your mouth to say something, realize that you can't take it back.
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (08:42)
Correct.
John C. Morley: (08:44)
And so if you say something, if it's a threat, even if it's a joke, don't! Because you never know what is gonna happen. And I tell people to do this all the time. If somebody says something to you and you're not comfortable with it, go to your local police department, and put your name in there. Don't file a complaint to send it to them, but get it on record. And the reason you do that is if something happens, you're covered. That's the main thing at the end of the day. So leading into what we're talking about before, Dr. Nuccitelli, and that is ODDOR, and I'm not talking about the beautiful aroma of your, no, it's not what is ODDOR?
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (09:22)
Okay. Well, ODDOR is a subconcept of ipredator, and the acronym stands for (it's not for smell) it there are two Ds ODDOR stands for our offline distress dictates online response (ODDOR). And that is the subconcept of ipredator. And essentially, the reason why it comes from ipredator, as we know, we have eight different types of online Assailants, online aggressors. And one of the concepts that walk with ODDOR is what I call the IVI ipredator victim intuition. And what I believe is, and not all but many, depending on how technologically savvy they are, how, you know, psychologically savvy they are, is that I believe. And I know that certain ipredators using IVI, I predator victim intuition. They can go online on social media, in forums, and message boards, and they can evaluate quickly who is a good target.
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (10:28)
So if you're presenting yourself online as somebody angry, somebody that is dysphoric, somebody that is despondent, depressed, or discouraged, and ipredator is going to look at you and quickly conclude whether or not you would be a good target either to steal from engaging in cyber criminal activities, or maybe he or she is a predatory troll and gets off on causing others to harm online, and now targets you and engages in troll-like behavior. So the IVI is the ability for another online user to assess quickly whether you will be a good target. Now, what is ODDOR? This moves into the psychology of ipredator cyberpsychology. And in a nutshell, ODDOR is how my offline world is going? Whether I'm happy, whether I'm sad, whether I'm intoxicated, whether I had a bad day at work, or whether I just got an argument with my husband or a wife, I believe our offline life has a direct impact on what we do online and what we do online there are only three ways to manage and manipulate information. We can compile information, disseminate information, and exchange information. Those are the only three ways. And what I believe is that, however, our offline life is going. It directly impacts what we do online. Now, most psychologists call it subjective processing. I'm sure many of you have heard of it. We all have. What's called our perceptual glasses. We perceive everything based on our present effects, how we feel right now, our past, our upbringing physiological medical. All of that comes into play with how we filter information. But what I believe with ODDOR is that offline distress dictates the online response. I believe our offline subjective processing is what we do offline when we come online. For some reason, I'm still trying to figure out the mechanisms at play so that it becomes distorted if you had a bad day at work. You come online, and you start reading messages or going to social media, and you're now dealing with trolls. That's going to impact you at a greater level than it would if you met some idiot guy on the street who was, you know, barking at you. In an offline environment, that would frustrate and get you upset. But for some reason online, it impacts us quite differently. And that's what I call ODDOR.
John C. Morley: (13:26)
That's fascinating. I wanna share another reason why you don't wanna stalk someone. I talked about the court, and I talked about things. Let me talk about something else that can happen so that you can; what I like to say is to communicate with people. When you communicate, things generally work out, and you can at least agree to disagree, but you can at least agree to be respectable. And what can happen if you take this too far? They can go and get what they call an order of protection. And they can get what they call a restraining order. Now, what the heck is that? Well, that's something that the court puts for the police department to execute. A lot of people think the police department does it. They don't, and they are just the processors of the court. And they enforce it.
John C. Morley: (14:16)
So when they issue that, that means that not only you, but the other person, so it's not a one-way thing. It's a double way. So a restraining order is issued. It works for both parties. So, you can't say, well, gee, you know, you're here, and I'm here. You both have to stay the 500 feet, right? So, people tell me, John, what the heck is 500 feet. I said, three football fields. That's a good way to be saved. Because if you don't follow that order, it's an order of the court. It's a temporary restraining order. It could become permanent. The temporary restraining order is usually sorted out to deal with nonsense. People that are sometimes arguing. And there's not a need, but they feel like you were saying before, psychologically affected. And sometimes they make it worse than what it is, which was the case in this situation. They painted it worse than what it was cuz they were hoping to Sue. They brought it to the state and said, " Oh, let the state handle it. It's all good. The state went after the other person, but they know what happened. The other person got smart. The other person filed the calendar claim. Do you know what happened? The court's looking just; you know what the court, the prosecutor says, oh, we're not interested in that person anymore. Right.
John C. Morley: (15:32)
Well, what happened? We're not interested. This is like a domestic dispute. We're not interested in this. What do you mean? So now you have to hire an attorney. If they have an attorney to fight that back and forth, it becomes very expensive. So, a prosecutor is not there to handle your, let's call your frustrations. They're there to protect somebody. If there's gonna be harm caused. That doesn't mean they annoy you once every hundred days because they park too close or yell. That's not a restraining order. As you said, it's repetitive actions repeatedly, three or more. And so I tell you, don't test this because you'll be tied up in court for anywhere from a year to more going back and forth, and you and your stress levels are gonna go through the roof because you don't realize what's involved. And how I like to say that you're not innocent until proven guilty in our country. You may or may not agree with me, but I believe you're guilty until proven innocent because when you have something like that, and the other thing I wanna tell you is that if you're having an issue with your husband, your wife, the first person to report kind of has the edge. Okay? Doesn't mean you can do whatever you want, but they have the edge in the situation. So, report something. And if you have things on file, you're good to go. When we talk about people, Dr. Nuccitelli, and we talk about society, I've noticed that this happens a lot more in a generation, let's say behind mine; why is that? But it doesn't happen to people. It happens more after the teen years, it doesn't happen so much. It happens from the twenties to maybe the thirties. It's not as prevalent later. There are some cases, but I've just noticed that it's more prevalent in those ages.
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (17:30)
Well, I mean, developmentally, as we age, relationships become more part of our identity and who we are. This is not to say children and teenagers don't engage in, you know, interpersonal dynamics. I mean, that is, but adolescents, you know, and then early adulthood, that is a form where we're learning how to deal with others, you know, and this is where there are multiple boyfriends and girlfriends and, you know, sexual exchanges, so forth and so on. But as we develop and reach adulthood, that is when we're supposed to pick someone we will be proverbially monogamous with for the rest of our lives. So there's a lot more at stake, but what I wanna bring up, Mr. Morley, when you bring up restraining orders in order protections. Okay. It is paramount.
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (18:22)
It is very important. Again, this is related to my experience, dealing with ipredators is to include no electronic communications, because if that restraining order, if that order of protection doesn't state that, now your stalker, the person that who's been abusive to you, can contact, you can create, you know, can by proxy, encourage others. And that's where it gets very murky and very blurry in terms of what's going on. And all I can say is welcome to the information age because you can have the best order protection and a restraining order. But now you're getting slandered. You're getting trolled by somebody. You don't even know their name or their location because they're using a VPN and reality. It's your future ex-husband, so this is the difficulty that creates the complexity of living in the information age, as it relates to what you're talking about,
John C. Morley: (19:23)
You have to make sure that your ODDOR has no electronic communication, no phones, and anything like that. And so when that happens, the point is so that you're not feeling threatened that it's not gonna cause you, and this is temporary. So the court can have time for you to get to court because it doesn't happen overnight. Right? And that's there as a protection. If you, let's say, get to that court, and you are found to be somebody that doesn't come anywhere near these accusations, the court's gonna lessen it, lower it. They might even be like, let's check this out, but they're gonna at least see. They're gonna do some checking. But the point is they will take your behavior very seriously into account.
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (20:15)
Yes. And if I, because I'm not a fatalist, I've been volunteering for now 11 years. I can't tell you how many folks I have listened to that I have helped. Hopefully, I have helped, but there have been many, many Mr. Morley who are going through divorce or ex-boyfriend, ex-girlfriend, you know where there are order protections, where there are restraining orders. They're being targeted online. They know it's their ex, but when they go to court, what don't they have is black evidentiary. They don't have evidence that John Morley, John C. Morley, is targeting me. Here is the proof because all I have is I suspect it's him because he commented on a blue sweater that I had last winter. That is not enough. That is the difficulty of where we're at right now related to ipredators. And particularly when we're talking about cyberstalking, one another, when it comes to adversary relationships.
John C. Morley: (21:20)
So I have an interesting question for you. So everything starts in adolescence. Yes. And adults hopefully have, let's say, a little more mental capacity in faculties to handle this in a manner that's not their shoe size. What do you recommend? We teach adolescents, and I'm talking very young. I'm talking like people in maybe first grade, second grade, or third grade. I know there's a concept. Now they call them friendlies. And non-friendly, so they've taught about stranger danger. What do you think we need to know if we're young children or their parents out there? What do they need to tell their kids so that they're not in this predicament?
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (22:03)
Well, thank you for bringing that up. And since I wrote ipredator years ago and I talk about it now, and my mission before I drop dead is to be able to encourage public, private, the school systems K through 12 to begin to introduce and educate children as I said from K through 12. And obviously, it's, you know, developmentally appropriate for the child's age are two things. Again, I'm giving advice related to us living in the information age and spending our entire waking lives online. It's teaching children digital citizenship and teaching children cyberbullying prevention. And then lastly, how to conduct oneself online. Now, these are not, you know, moral aspects that deal with the religious precept. I am, you know, presenting what needs to be taught to children as it relates to living in the information age.
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (23:08)
Because as I said, and as you know, and as all your followers and viewers understand, we are enveloped by information and communication technology. Goodness gracious, Mr. Morley, there is a term I didn't come up with. It's called nomophobia. It's a silly name, nomophobia, and a person who experiences a panic attack or severe anxiety. Why? Because they can't find their mobile device or they can't connect to wifi. They experience significant anxiety and nomophobia. There's also a social term called Phubbing. I didn't come up with that either, PHUBBING. And that has to do when two people talking to one another, and suddenly, one of them gets contacted on their mobile device. And instead of ignoring it, they completely ignore the person they're talking to. And now address the mobile device, such a social fall pop.
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (24:16)
So we are living at a time. Again, we're in the information age, which begins in the late 1970s. We're only 40 years into what inevitably is going to last centuries. We are also beginning to be introduced now, and we think it's advanced, but it's just beginning in virtual reality and artificial intelligence. A couple of centuries from now, Mr. Morley, they're going to look back at us, and they are going to laugh. So now we are at the beginning of a period of history there is no criminal defamation. There is no accountability. People can essentially behave and treat each other online through what I call the veil of anonymity. So what we need to do, going back to your question, is we need to teach children about all of this now as early and as young as possible. I have, you know, helped in my volunteer work with parents who have bought their child an iPhone at the age of three, turning four, because the older sister has an iPhone and uses Instagram. So now mom buys an iPhone, Mr. Morley for a three-year-old, a three-year-old.
John C. Morley: (25:37)
No, No, No. And they're yelling and screaming, but I want to encourage something. As many of you know, I design security for wall street in the IT age. It's important to understand that parents need to do things until the children are at the age they can make their own decisions, such as block certain sites until they're a certain age. I mean, you, you have to control certain things, maybe turn their internet off. I know a lot of cell phone carriers. You can turn off a lot of the new routers. Now you can set a time when the internet comes on and when the internet comes off, and you can have a separate network that only the parents know about, and they can use that 24/7. So I think parents and educators need to understand that technology's not going away. You know, things like wearable devices. And I tell people this to Dr. Nuccitelli that, you know, when something's free, okay. Or you get a big discount. I say, what's the catch. Well, they're gonna learn information about you. Who's getting my information? Who's it being sold to?
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (26:47)
MM-hmm
John C. Morley: (26:49)
Even when I search online, I'm not going to mention the name of the site because we don't want to do that. But what I will tell you is I use a site called a duck, www.duck.com because they give every site a rating. Okay. So if you go to duck.com and type in one of your other favorite search engines you put in here, do you know what it'll give it? It will give it a very low rating. I put one of those in there. I'm not gonna tell you which one. And if I click on it, it comes up, and it'll give it a D.
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (27:20)
You are right
John C. Morley: (27:20)
So you can install a plugin to help you do that. So these are things, things you can do. I think people are not aware of how this protection is important for mental sanity and the healthy growing up of adolescents and other adults.
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (27:43)
Right. And if I may miss more before we continue, sure. This is imperative for particularly the old folks like you and me. Okay. We grew up in a pre-information age world. Okay. So when we were young, and we wanted to go out on a date, guess what we had to ask that person face to face or at a minimum, we had to talk to them on the phone today. That is completely different. The psychology of what it means to be a child in the information age is far different than it was 20, 30, or 40 years ago. So for the parents, who watch this, who listen to this podcast, it understands that what your child perceives to experience his or her ODDOR offline distress dictates online response is very different. What they're doing online? Very different, you know, then what you remember and you recall when you were a kid. And you were out there trying to be cool, trying to be part of a group, trying to be a typical teenager. When I say children of the information age, I am saying they're almost not so many different creatures, but creatures living in a very different environment called the information age.
John C. Morley: (29:10)
And when we add artificial intelligence, which for those of you without getting too in-depth with that, I wanna just let you know what that is. So that's basic. And then we have neural networks, you have artificial intelligence, which is the study mimicking of the human body and the mind. And it's putting it into the software. And that software is being able to learn. You might have heard of the movie war games. Well, this "war game" was a toy compared to this. And so, it makes decisions based on conditions. You know that we're even getting to a military system. It's not gonna be here yet. That's going to make decisions on a war based on artificial intelligence. I'm not really on a boat with that. I was talking to somebody about that, and they said that you know, you can't have the system in place. You remember the Minutemen from many years ago, right? Well, they wouldn't turn the key when it was time to get the order. So they said they needed to get people out of the silos and make it automatic. So now the computer sets the file and fires the missiles automatically. And so, with this concept, we're making decisions day in and day out. And we're choosing whether to do something. And I always say to people; we never should let a computer. You know how much I love computers and technology. We never should use computers and technology to decide a life. That's my big thing. And this is why ladies and gentlemen when I was graduating my college, I got offered a very big position. I knew I wanted to start my own company. I didn't know I wanted to be an entrepreneur and then be a serial entrepreneur. But I knew that I wanted to make a difference. And I knew what this company was doing because a friend of mine worked for them. And I said to, and I'll be happy to work for you. There's only one thing I won't do. Oh, that's fine. We work as long as you don't ask me to ever write software that will be used to harm or hurt anyone.
John C. Morley: (31:22)
Oh, alright. You're probably not a good fit for us then. Well, we can give you more money. It's not about the money. I can't do that. So with artificial intelligence, it learns patterns, which is why we're so good with virus protection. Now sandboxing and things. We're learning patterns. How do we learn that? Dr. Nuccitelli, we learned that off to the human mind. So the human mind has helped us evolve as you know, quite a bit. And so, by these things, we're doing artificial intelligence. How does that help? Well, and it hurts because imagine for a moment, let's just say ten people are smarter than one usually. And so if ten people were now making decisions and collaborating, they would get better and better each time just like we get better each time, but they get exponentially better when there are more people because there are more resources. So now imagine that cyber-attack or imagine that let's call it that cyber stock. Okay. Imagine that back door Trojan payload. Now figuring out how to launch in the most strategic, efficient manner possible. That means choosing which servers, what time, and what ports? That's a lot. That's why firewalls now are getting into artificial intelligence.
John C. Morley: (32:55)
And by that, we're able to understand a pattern and see, well, wait a minute. Who are you? I'm a printer. Okay. I need access to this port. Let me check your health profile. You're a printer. Yep. You get access to that port. Hang on a minute. Let me check your webpage. Oh yes. You have the word brother. You have the word HP. Yep. You're a printer. I'll let you go if I take my laptop and do that. And I spoof it by changing it to match the Mac address of that, which a lot of people are doing it. Won't allow saying, Hey, wait a minute. I don't see a webpage with the word brother, HP, running the printer. I'm blocking you. So I think what you mentioned before is very similar to what we're doing in technology. Now we're analyzing the behavior. We're analyzing the action, and then we are responding. So there is an acronym. We have lots of acronyms, just like they do in psychology. But there's an acronym in technology by one company, and it's called SARC. Okay. Security automation response control.
John C. Morley: (34:09)
And so, imagine having an entire infrastructure. I'm talking about your heating system, your cameras, everything in that building. Automation! And for those of you that don't know, I'm very against, I'm building a new home, and I'm very against automating things. Now I'm not against having automated faucets. What I'm against is having them tie into a network that's linkable to something outside. So if I wanna use tablets and it's internal only, and it's not connected to the internet, I'm fine with that. Right. But I don't want any of that stuff, except my cameras, ever to be able to be accessed outside of the home. Oh, it'll make my bath water. It'll close my blinds. If that gets put into the wrong hands, we could be putting ourselves into a real annihilation.
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (35:09)
Well, certainly
John C. Morley: (35:11)
Well, that's, so that's my thing of many
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (35:13)
To the worst point of cyber terrorism, I believe again, and this is my definition, part of my concept as it relates to me, cyber-terrorist, cyberterrorism is the cyber attack upon civilian combatants that lead to fatalities. And with the advances that are going on in information technology, I believe there has yet to be a successful cyber-terrorist attack. We will see it may occur here with the new Ukrainian Russian conflict that's going on, but going forward, as I said, with artificial intelligence and with virtual reality, those two aspects concerning us being in the information age, we are in its infancy stage. It's only going to become greater and greater, and that is macroscopic. So let's go the microscope and nanotechnology, goodness gracious. That's a show in and of itself where you'll be able to get an injection, and nanorobots will be able to go through your blood screen and do a whole cornucopia of things.
John C. Morley: (36:28)
Yeah. I think that we as citizens have a right to do or not like if that should be our choice. And I feel that this technology's out there, but I think this is why we must have the right people in government that are going to allow or disallow it. I mean, we had something. You probably knew this about a year or two ago. There's somebody called IoT, the internet of things. So being someone who's studying how to become an EMT volunteer, there is, let's say, somebody who needs an IV. There was a big issue with this one company. I'm not gonna mention the name. They had a problem because they didn't have appropriate encryption. Somebody could just hack right into their Bluetooth device connection or through their wifi because the app they had on the phone, once the internet got into the phone, got into the thing, was able to turn off the pump, raise the dosage, lower the dosage, give false information back to the doctor or the reporting team that made them think things were different than what they are. A perception, if you will, right.
John C. Morley: (37:45)
And our world, what you and I see every day is a perception; regardless of what's there, it doesn't matter when you mention virtual reality. This is right up my alley because when you try to achieve a goal. You remember the famous basketball players. I forget all their names, but there were three groups of people. One group after school didn't practice at all. The second group practiced religiously every day after school, and the third group didn't practice at a gym, but next to the gym, they practiced in a study hall with their minds.
John C. Morley: (38:26)
And at the end of that study, the one that was the best by a little bit, just a little bit, was the people that practiced virtually. So people say, why is that? And that labors, to your point about the virtualness. Our mind doesn't know whether we're doing something or envisioning it or imagining it? Because the same neurons what was that law by Hebb's, "neurons that wire together fire together." So you could get extremely tired watching a movie of you running and out of breath because you're parts of your body you're gonna fire. And I see in this world that if people are going for these cyber things where this can go, and there's already devices coming out that do all kinds of things and they're being controlled remotely, are we opening ourselves up for a little bit of Pandora's box?
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (39:33)
Most certainly, we're yes. Yes. And you know, and again, not to too my own horn, but ten years ago when I wrote ipredator, and you know I occasionally say this when I'm talking in these interviews, but I truly believe it. And I hope your viewers don't see me as nuts. But what I say is "cyberspace is an extension of human consciousness." And not to say that it's happening. It is gradually occurring in the digital universe and all the electronic devices; all the connections, I believe, are very similar to the neuronal connections of the brain. And as the digital universe matures, I believe it is essentially mimicking. And one day will be a Xerox copy of the same way the human brain deals with it daily which created technology, you know, thousands and millions of individual brains that are now all connected in the digital universe. So, as I said, I believe
John C. Morley: (40:48)
So, tell us, where do you think we're going? And what should we be prepared for Dr. Nuccitelli?
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (40:54)
Well, I think we should, you know, we should continue. We should first and foremost understand (forgive my cat in the background), but what we should understand is, and I hate to say this because I love to eat a pound of pasta, but we have to practice moderation. Maybe we could talk about internet addiction and internet use disorder in a different show, but it's moderation. It's turn off the devices, put down your technology, go outside, throw a football, you know, go to a baseball game, go on a date with a loved one. And guess what? Don't bring your iPhone (your smartphone is). Go outside, exercise, and do things offline, not using technology.
John C. Morley: (41:44)
Mr. I love that Dr. Nuccitelli. I think if more people I love that day we have every year or it's called get outside. I think Nickelodeon does it like, okay, you should be outside playing too for the next two hours. We're all outside playing, and you should be too.
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (41:59)
Yes. And, and don't give me your, I have folks that say, well, Dr. Nucc, why do you want us to turn off the internet? And my response is, no, I love the internet. I thrive in everything I do. What we're doing right now involves technology. But what I'm saying is that there's a time and a place, and it's just as good to go offline. And I'm telling you, for the male, there are plenty of good-looking men or women out there, and they're offline waiting for you.
John C. Morley: (42:29)
So I think the challenge is a lot of people, Dr. Nuccitelli, I think, are getting brainwashed by the media by other people, and they're not making their own; they're not acting the way they would wanna act. This is what I was saying before. They're acting in kind of the way that Joneses, it's kind of going back to let's do what the Joneses are doing.
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (42:50)
Yeah. And the other thing, part of the human condition is we are creatures of habit. And we also, in addition, to being creatures of habit, are creatures of convenience. So we will always take the path of least resistance. So if I can talk to somebody online, as opposed to hanging out with them at the local pub, most likely I'm gonna sit here on my butt and talk to you online, as opposed to getting up, going outside, and going down the road. Now I'm not saying we give up webcasting and talking to one another online, but what I'm saying, you know what, that pub, they make some great Buffalo wings. So let's go there occasionally. So what I'm saying is, as we mature and as we evolve in the information age, it's always understanding we are human, we are social creatures, and we are best suited to dealing with others offline. Not to say that online, we can't learn about one another, but psychology's interpersonal dynamics occur using our five senses which…..
John C. Morley: (44:01)
I agree with you. And one of the things we're striving to do we're hoping within the next two years, we're always gonna be doing obvious things online, but we're hoping to be bringing some of our guests into our studio. That's what we're hoping to do. So that it'll be a whole new thing. And I think you hit the nail on the head, Dr. Nuccitelli, and that is that it's really about a dichotomy. You know, there's a time and a place, just like there's a time and a place to be quiet. There's a time and a place to listen. There's a time and a place to speak. There's a time and a place to do things online, and there's a time and a place to go offline. Yes. And I think our life should probably have more offline than it does online.
John C. Morley: (44:42)
Online is great, but we need to get out in the air. We need to connect with people. There's also something called vibrations. And I know this is a little deep for a lot of our viewers, but being a Reiki to master and taking my first level of psychology, nowhere near what you took. But I did get my first certification in hypnosis. The thing is that when we put all these things together, I think what's happening is that people appreciate it. Because if you're ever around someone and they have positive energy, you wanna spend more time with them. Yes. If somebody doesn't have good energy, what do you do? Well, you're not nasty then, but I usually say to them, Hey, what's up? Why are you so down, or what's going on? Or what's happening? Oh, I don't know. Or if somebody's being negative, I'm like, you know, maybe we should reschedule the meeting. Maybe we should reschedule this event. Maybe we should do it next time. Because you know, you're pre-occupied. Oh no, no, it's okay. And then they go on like, well, you know what, I don't wanna hang around you anymore because you're bringing me down. You know, we become the people we hang around. And so that's why we heard the saying "misery loves company," but it's the truth.
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (45:57)
It is the truth. And one of the quick things, Mr. Morley, I wanna say going back to a little bit, I didn't talk about it before related to COVID, which going forward, I hope it does not become, you know, more the norm what is called VLE virtual learning environment and online learning and for children, what has occurred. And I understand why living in a COVID environment with a pandemic is that a large chunk of educational time was spent where doing it in virtual learning environments and online work environments. How wonderful is that? But what I am hoping is that society doesn't move in the direction of where we no longer need brick and mortar to where schools get the kids on the school books, going to schools, going to prom, playing Saturday night football, so forth and so on. I hope with time, it doesn't move into all virtual learning because if that occurs, Mr. Morley, it is going to completely change the human condition.
John C. Morley: (47:04)
I couldn't agree with you more. I think people need to realize what's going on. And I think they have to embrace people's consciousness and that we're not separate. We are all together. And I think people need to probably embrace that concept that we're more connected than I think anybody thinks.
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (47:24)
Right. And he is used to the adage in the beginning stages of social media to get connected. Boy, that's a lot. I wouldn't use the profanity, but as I've said is that instead of social media and information technology connecting us, it is working on disconnecting us. And that is proof, as I said earlier, that we are phubbing where a text message on my cell phone is more important than the beautiful red hat I'm talking about right in front of me. I mean, that to me is just amazing.
John C. Morley: (48:00)
I think it comes down to a standard, and that is that when you are with somebody, you let them know what you expect. And no one's perfect. I also included that we're not perfect. And you know, when somebody does something wrong, you may or may not agree with me. And that is that I don't want to go after the person because we're all not perfect. I want to talk about, Hey Bob, Hey Joe. You know, when anyone does that, or they cut me off like that, I feel bad inside. Or I feel angry inside. And it's not you; it's anybody. So I was just wondering, is there a way that you could maybe change that behavior?
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (48:41)
Well, the way to change that behavior, just like any behavior, is insight awareness that that behavior exists. So, but unfortunately, some of us, you know, suffer from personality disorders and psychological dysfunction, where no matter, even if we are aware of it, you know, we don't do anything about to change. And hence that's a whole different thing. When it comes to personality disorders where people who suffer from access to personality disorder, all of them, there's 10 of them, it's everybody else's fault, whatever the predicament is, whatever is going on in the environment. It's because of them, not me.
John C. Morley: (49:18)
Right? And when you…..
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (49:20)
Getting back to us, living in the information age and dealing with children and parenting again, and I hate to be redundant for parents dealing with kids today, it understands that it's a whole different phenomenon with them. It's
John C. Morley: (49:35)
It's in a ball game
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (49:36)
For your friends and loved ones who are targeted, particularly if they're younger than them, it can be far more trauma, traumatizing and devastating than, let's say, for you, myself, or even millennials. That is a little bit younger, but for children, Mr. Morley, we are in the information age. Again, adolescent child suicide has always existed teen suicide, but we are the first civilization since the beginning to have the concept of called cyberbully side. And that is, as you know, a child that takes his or her life because he or she is being targeted online. And what do we know about cyberspace? Cyberspace is an artificial electronic universe. It's not real. So we have children that are taking their lives because they are being taunted. And they're being teased oftentimes by children. They don't even know that they don't even go to their school.
John C. Morley: (50:41)
Right. I think what you're saying resonates a lot with people. And I know definitely with me, but what I will tell you is, you know, many years ago, I will tell you that we always wanna attack the person say, well, you know, you did this, you did that. Realize that it's not about you. It's about what happened. And like you said, to recognize it, yes. And to treat it like a behavior. And when you do that, people are a lot less defensive, right? Cyberstalking and cyberbullying are serious problems. And I think the solution to it is education, but early education,
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (51:19)
Very early education, correct?
John C. Morley: (51:21)
It should be a required course, maybe in pre-K or something.
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (51:25)
It should be to me, and I say it should be a compulsory education requirement. When I was a kid, I don't know about you, Mr. Morley. But I had to take wood shop. I had to take the middle class. I also had to take a speech class, obviously here in the United States. We
John C. Morley: (51:37)
Had to do that. Yes. Speech class
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (51:40)
That needs to, you know, the wood shop that needs to occur. You know, children as early as K through 12 begin to introduce the concepts of digital citizenship and how to conduct oneself online, and also to learn about online safety. Because why children today and only going forward are going to spend more and more time online. And what I guarantee, what it's going to be shown through research as time goes on, we know that the prepubescent, the pubescent child, all of us. Our self-identity begins to form when we are pre-teens to teens. And then it finalizes when we're in adult early adulthood. Okay. Freud believes personality is finalized by time or eight or nine, you know, Adler or young, they came around and said, you know, later, you know, but pre-adolescence and adolescence. Today children are spending their entire waking time online, and we need to understand how does that impacts self-identity formation?
John C. Morley: (52:56)
Dr. Telli, this was amazing. And I could spend hours and hours with you. We are out of time, unfortunately. We will have you come back again. Probably when something else resonates, which I know something will. And we'll ask for your feedback. So again, you've given us some really useful nuggets of information that I hope you guys will all choose to apply in your life. And do what I always say, which we're here for one reason in life. We're here to become better versions of ourselves and to help everyone else in this world become better versions of themselves. And when you do that, your light's gonna shine before I say goodbye to you for just this time, but you'll be back again. Tell us how can the folks reach out or learn a little more about you if they'd like to get
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (53:40)
Well, everything on the website is public domain and educational. You don't have to gimme attribution. All the assessments, everything is there. You can download it, and you don't even have to give your email because that's anti-online safety. So it's all free. Print it out. If you don't like it, blow your nose, and throw it in the garbage, but it is www.ipredator.org, .net, .co. Everything on my website, everything on my social media, all my educational images, everything is public domain and free. You don't even have to attribute me.
John C. Morley: (54:20)
Wow. Well, Dr. Nuccitelli, again, it is always a privilege, pleasure, and honor to have you as a guest and to just soak up this great knowledge and wisdom that you're always sharing with us. So I wanna thank you very much for coming.
Dr. Micheal Nuccitelli: (54:35)
Thank you.
John C. Morley: (54:42)
Wow. I know we've had him come on the show before, and every time he comes, you know, we just sort of learn a little more. What did you think about him, Marcus?
Marcus: (54:53)
Yeah, I mean, he's just one of the best guests that we had here, and I just appreciate him so much for being so important to me. But you know, the important tips that we could just take and pass along to others who might be in the same situation.
John C. Morley: (55:08)
Absolutely. And you know, last week we shared some very interesting points for those of you who did watch it, go back and watch the show. That was last week's show, which was on April 22nd. It was a great show with him on again. But I also talked about things you could do to mitigate problems that could happen in your son or daughter's life things as screen time and putting your computer in a public area. So they don't form this bridge around the computer and a wall that you can't get into. And suddenly, you get things like nasty behavior and all kinds of things that are more than just rebellion because this rebellion is trying to protect something that they feel should be kept secret, but is very wrong and could get them, Marcus, into a lot of trouble.
John C. Morley: (56:05)
So now that we had this very enlightening conversation with Dr. Michael Nuccitelli let's just talk about what are signs of stalking behavior. I think that's very important. So signs of stalking behavior are simple. It's unwanted contact with somebody who's following you. Maybe they send unwanted gifts. I don't mean if they send you one thing and you don't like it. That's not sending unwanted gifts. Sending unwanted gifts means you send one thing. They ignore it. You keep following up with them. They tell you they don't want anything they don't want anymore. And you keep sending more jump to them, and they start to feel a little intimidating. You're tracking somebody using GPS. And I don't mean a loved one like your son or daughter showing up to wait at getting you to move about you.
Maybe they're harassing you. They're gathering information about you so they can learn where to show up next. They're hacking your accounts so they can get more dirt on where you're going. And magically, Marcus just happened to be there. Yeah. Appear threatening to you or try to hurt you through threats. Actions to control frightened as we said, threaten you. So a lot of times people say, well, you know, John, this doesn't matter so much because you know, they're just kids or they're just playing around, or he didn't mean it, or this adult didn't mean it. But you know, stalking happens not just with adults. It happens with people in 2030, even people of the same age range. It's not something that's isolated because I'm older. You're younger than that. It's not like that, and only it can be. But most stalking happens between either opposite-sex relationships or insane-sex relationships where it's their significant other.
John C. Morley: (58:16)
Right? And so, a lot of times, it's because of an ex. It's because an act of revenge could be a lot of things. But at the end of the day, when somebody says no, they mean no. And when somebody tells you that they don't want contact with you, you could be a little hurt. You could even ask them, Hey, why don't you want to talk to me? And if they still tell you, no, that's your key to exit, stage left and not ask any questions. So a sign of stalking is people lurking around your workplace or your neighborhood. People watching you repeated phone calls, that's numerous phone calls from someone that you don't see socially or regularly. And it spells danger. Also, people that call you for a block name or number. Now, I don't mean this. Because people call from block numbers all the time, but calling from a block name or number and not identifying yourself or even calling people after 10 p.m. could be considered harassment, right? It doesn't have to be sexual. It could just be something that is making you fear life.
John C. Morley: (59:38)
And so giving inappropriate gifts. So some stalkers will send flowers or other gifts. And I don't just mean one gift. I mean, you send a gift, they don't acknowledge it, and you keep sending more gifts. You keep saying, Hey, did you get the gift? So if you send somebody a gift as a friend, that's not stalking, then all right,
John C. Morley: (01:00:00)
But if you keep sending those gifts, when they said, Hey, I don't want to talk to you anymore. I don't want any more gifts from you. Oh, okay. Fine. I won't send anything. That's fine. So I think it's recognizing that behavior and knowing that it's gonna stop. If somebody stops, as Dr. Michael Nuccitelli says, it's not stalking; it's the habitual desire and consistency of that behavior. Oh, another big one is people that do things. Like, as to make sure you have a flat tire or make sure something happens to you, your car, or a minor health condition. So they can be there to rescue you. That's a big one. Because now you feel so indebted to them. You're like, oh, well, they're not stalking me. They saved my life, but they planned that. So that would happen to you. So your tire would go flat. So you would choke. So they would be there to save your life. It's a really weird spot they put you into.
Marcus: (01:01:02)
Yeah.
John C. Morley: (01:01:03)
Another one that I think is very interesting and it's one that I would've not thought of somebody who, let's say, complains about another. That's stalking them when let's say, they aren't stalking them. Like, if you happen to be at the gym once or be in the same building, you happen to be there at the elevator. That's not stalking them. You come home. You're at the elevator at the same time. That's not stalking. But somebody that is a stalker might decide that you're stalking them. Do you know what they're gonna do? They're gonna manipulate you.
Marcus: (1:01:45)
Yeah.
John C. Morley: (1:01:46)
And you know what they're gonna do. They're gonna try. And they're gonna succeed at filing a frivolous lawsuit because they claim that their privacy is being invaded. That they're fearful of their life. They'll make all kinds of statements because they're the ones that are stalking. And they are doing this as a method to keep you in their life. Now that's one, Marcus. I would've never thought of it in my life. No, but it happens a lot of times. Because that person that is being charged for possibly stalking, which by the way, United States you're guilty until proven innocent, they didn't know. And when that happens, these people get arrested. Their minds, like in this whirlwind, like what did I do?
John C. Morley: (1:02:51)
And it puts them in such a state that they don't know whether they're guilty or innocent because they figure they must be guilty cuz they got arrested. But the truth of the matter is they're not guilty. So if somebody brings a frivolous lawsuit to you, okay, and says, you're stalking them. Maybe you get arrested, whatever it is. And you know, you're innocent. Make sure you file a counter. What that's gonna do, ladies and gentlemen are two things you see when you file a lawsuit; the person files a lawsuit. The state usually goes against that person. And there's no need for an attorney on their part cuz the state's gonna go after you. However, when the state sees that, that person's not that type of character, cuz they're gonna check that person out after several court appearances, and now you go file a countersuit against them, and they see your behavior is not criminal or not stalkerish at all. Guess what the state's gonna do. They're gonna step down.
Marcus: (1:03:59)
Yeah, exactly.
John C. Morley: (1:03:59)
And the other person's gonna be like, what are you doing? Like you're supposed to go out to that person. The state's no longer interested in pursuing that person. You're gonna need to get your attorney. This is something that should be on the Gerald Rivera show. It sounds like a friendly neighbor dispute and not a stalking thing, but it is stalking. It's the person that brought the lawsuit against you. That's trying to stalk you for attention. Isn't that wacky,
Marcus: (1:04:30)
You know, it's very techy, John, and it is disgusting to get speakable people that need to get some help.
John C. Morley: (1:04:37)
And this happens, Marcus, I gotta tell you, you might say, well, you know, John, this only happens with people that don't have the money. I got news for you. This happens with the people that are making the most money because they believe Marcus that they can buy the law out. Do you know what happens? The law eventually says you know what? Mr. Such and such, enough's enough. You're lucky we don't arrest you and file charges against you for wasting the court's time and sending you a bill for all this nonsense.
Marcus: (1:05:12)
Okay. That's true.
John C. Morley: (1:05:14)
Another sign is using the internet to follow you is also isolating you from your loved ones. They wanna make sure that you can't connect with them. So they're there for you, acting violently or threatening you when you refuse to pay them attention, too much-unwanted contact. Maybe no one particular stands out at the moment as dangerous. But when you look at the entire picture, do you feel alarmed by them always popping up in your life? Maybe experience some repeat unwanted contact from the same person. If it's someone, you know, tell him or her that you're feeling uncomfortable. If a situation continues, report him to the police or her to the police. If it's someone you don't know, go directly to the police. But what I want you to understand is that if something happens and they say they don't want to have contact with you, you can say fine and just move on. Don't try to figure out why they don't want to talk to you or why they don't want contact with you. Don't waste your time. Cuz it's going to be a major frivolous lawsuit. That's gonna cost you a lot of time and money, and you could have just walked away from this whole thing. First of all, do you want somebody in your life that has that kind of disastrous behavior? I don't think so. Marcus.
Marcus: (1:06:50)
I don't think so either. Do you know? And that would just be ridiculous just to continue to allow that and sit up there and take it. And you know, but a lot of times people fall victim, and they feel like
John C. Morley: (1:07:00)
They fall, victim. And it also happens, by the way. I'm gonna tell you the last one it's really important. And that is between people that are getting divorced.
Marcus: (1:07:10)
Yeah. That's a big
John C. Morley: (1:07:11)
The kids with somebody else. The other kid is with the mother, and now you send, or the mother sends gifts. The parents don't want this. They tell the child to write you back and say that they don't want any more gifts. That they're unwanted. Now they force the child into bringing a harassment suit against you.
So what you need to do is a petition for custody.
John C. Morley: (1:07:42)
Because it's probably not the child that doesn't want your gifts. It's the family; it's the mother; it's the father there in that family that does not want you part of that family. And they figure if they can just do this, eventually the court's gonna get involved and they're permanently gonna put an act. You see the reason why people file these frivolous lawsuits. I'm gonna tell you why. Number one, maybe they have something to hide in new life. It could be sexual orientation. It could be anything. It could be something they did. And they're afraid that that certificate other might do something to either out them, get them in trouble, lose their job. And when they know that they're magically going to become like this monster toward you. Not because they want to, but because they're living two lives. This also could happen if you have two marriages, which you shouldn't have. So that's another situation. So if something doesn't smell right, okay, don't go back for a second sniff. If it smells like chocolate, tastes like chocolate look like chocolate. It's probably chocolate. So accept it for what it is and use this opportunity to become a better version of yourself and help them become better versions of themselves. Because I want to tell you something. If you get a record of stalking, you're not gonna be able to work for anybody.
John C. Morley: (1:09:16)
You're gonna have very hard times getting credit. And you might even wind up on some safe lists around schools. Even though you didn't do anything like that, they might think your behavior could be more criminal than they were able to conclude even if you were not guilty. So that's why it's important to understand. You don't want to go all through that. And then do you want to go through an expungement after that?
John C. Morley: (1:09:43)
Once that happens, and now a countersuit gets filed, you could lose your job.
Marcus: (1:09:51)
Yeah.
John C. Morley: (1:09:52)
And you, whether you're the lady or that A plus macho man, let's just say you won't be so macho anymore when the cops take you away to jail for harassment. And now, instead of giving you a temporary restraining order, they give you a permanent restraining order for life. Is it worth that? I don't think so. So I hope, ladies and gentlemen, I know our show went over a little bit tonight. I hope that you will embrace it when somebody says no. I'm not just talking about dating and things like that. I'm talking about everyday people. If they don't want your behavior, don't want you in a group, or don't want you to comment, don't comment. If something happens once, it's okay, but when it's repetitive behavior. And you can even let the person know, look, I don't want contact from you anymore. If you keep contacting me, I'm gonna go to the police.
John C. Morley: (1:10:57)
And if you say to them, well, why? Because I don't feel comfortable around you, and that's it. You need to walk away. There are plenty of other people in the world to become friends with, to become lovers with, to become business partners with; it can happen anywhere. So, let's embrace stalking and understand that January national stalking awareness month was here, and it comes every year, and it happened because some innocent people got in trouble. So the last thing I'd like to see for any of our viewers here is to get wrapped up in something that might take you a year or two. Time, effort, money, emotional toll, and frustration and pain.
John C. Morley: (1:11:52)
This is, so I hope tonight's show has been an inspiration for all of you. And to know what stalking is to not do it and to make sure that you don't accidentally fall into that trap. That might cause somebody else to report you as a potential stalk.
John C. Morley: (1:12:14)
Well, ladies and gentlemen, I am John C. Morley, a serial entrepreneur. It has been an amazing privilege, pleasure, and honor to be with you again this Friday. Thank you to Dr. Michael Niccitelli for opening our eyes and letting us understand that stalking is not one time. It's repeat, habitual, consistent behavior that alarms, threatens, or that's unwanted contact. So, if your ex calls you and bothers you once, that's fine. But just saying, Hey, please, don't contact me anymore. They call you once and annoy you. Don't go to the police for that. Have yourself a great rest of your day and a great weekend. And we'll be back next Friday with another great show. Just for you. Have a wonderful weekend. Everyone take care!